Realm: Sylvanas
Character (name, faction, level...): Khazmark, Horde, 110
Difficult mode of the instance in which you found this issue: Everywhere
Complete description of your issue (do not forget to specify the issue, all conditions for making the issue to happen, and if the issue is related to a phase, specify the phase in which you found this issue):
This report is a continuation of my latest report entitled "The State of: Beast Mastery". The report reached a decent amount of popularity within mainly hunter community but also the community as a whole. At the moment there's really a lot of replies and it's easy to get lost in the sea of feedback and discussion. So per Rattoyys suggestion, I decided to make another report focusing on the possibility of Dire Beast and Sneaky Snakes being bugged.
Since a few days ago we concluded that Kill Command working most likely as intended right now. The nerf was needed because it was overbuffed, however my problem was always with the fact that FS decided to nerf KC without resolving the issues of underperforming spells which until then, KC was compensating for which then led to the spec as a whole underperforming and hunters not really being viable as they used to since MM isn't competetive because of it's own bugs and SV never really being competetive as MM or BM anyway. And while we concluded KC is fine, the one problem which remained is that everyone could see the total damage of BM was lower than it should be. Something is holding the specs performance and what I've found so far is the following. We'll go over how Dire Beast and Sneaky Snakes could be the solution to the issue and how if fixed, these spells could give BM the little push it needs. As always, I have some screenshots so let's get into it:
https://imgur.com/a/pH7asoS
https://imgur.com/a/pq1Ph8J
https://imgur.com/a/Y1RzdNa
https://imgur.com/a/DIbL50Q
Alright, so what we see here is some numbers I took this afternoon after my glorious battles with the training dummy. First let's focus on Dire beast. As I said recently in my other report, after some discussion with a QA member Tenjin the other day, it "seems" that dire beast melee damage is alright. However everything is VERY questionable about dire beast because the one thing which shows to be true again and again is that my dire beast melee damage almost never goes above 20m while virtually almost every person on WLogs in single target encounters has dire beast melee damage of 25m at least, and most times it goes to 30m and above. So since dire beast melee "seemed" fine, I started looking into how often dire beast crits on FS and how it used to crit on retail. What I found is that on retail dire beasts in 99% of cases crit about 40-45% of the encounter and in more rare cases up to 50-60% crits during an encounter. For me, it mostly ranges from 25% to 35%, and only if i totally changed my gear to full crit and ditching mastery which is my main stat, only then, dire beast crit started to reach 45%. So without stretching this out too much, at this time I believe something with the dire beast melee crit procs is wrong. Average, not top, AVERAGE hunters from retail seemed to easily have their dire beasts crit above 35% of the boss, while hunters of firestorm are feeling lucky if they reach that, and stuff like 50% hits of our dire beasts, we can only dream about. Again, I cannot ofcourse confirm this but the main thing remains that dire beasts on FS in total do SO MUCH LESS melee damage than they did on retail. We're talking about millions.
Next. Sneaky Snakes... now I don't want to sound arrogant but if this doesn't get fixed I'll have a hard time sleeping at night. From my observations, Sneaky snakes (cobra commander) damage is consisted of Deathstrike venom, and Melee the snakes do. Both seem to be a bit bugged on rng and they do very little, but the one that is infinitely more bugged is sneaky snakes melee. You can see that in the images I linked. I was hitting the dummy for 3 minutes every time and every time sneaky snakes did between 300k and 1.5m damage in total. This if you ask me, is fairly ridiculous. You can see on that one pic that over 3 mins, sneaky snakes melee does 680k damage and was the least damaging spell that pull. If hit kill command only once, that one hit would do more damage than sneaky snakes melee over 3 mins.
For the end I will link some totally random logs I scrnshot tonight. These logs were NOT FROM TOP HUNTERS SO THERE IS NO ARGUMENT THEY ALL GOT VERY LUCKY WITH RNG. These logs were just completely random picks i chose from more average hunters on retail. I will link like 3-4 images and if you need more info, you can just go to WLogs, click on random BM hunts after scrolling down a while and see even those hunters were doing so much better with dire beasts and sneaky snakes which for us seem to be problematic.
https://imgur.com/a/dIJI8Kn
https://imgur.com/a/hHvk3Iy
https://imgur.com/a/kkevViR
https://imgur.com/a/CTMwiIX
That's about it. I'm not making this any longer than it alrdy is. I just wanted to be thorough and I hope this shows something that might be something which is making us such a poor spec at the moment.
Thank you for reading, if anyone has something extra they discovered, feel free to leave it here. Feedback is good. :)
Steps for reproducing the issue: Consider buffing dire beast crit chance and sneaky snakes melee
+1
+1 by: Angelice.
https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator try this
or nevermind this for BFA but yes what you saying kill command is lower than it should for me it deal 300k which should deal 440k normal and deal 700k crit which should deal 1000k crit as in retail video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7szBw-NIEc
also kill command deal lower that what says in tooltib if that help
up
Thanks for the support guys.
Before we all drink too much and pass out, I thought I'd send you all into the night with a smile on ur face: https://imgur.com/a/Y4ssYVf 377k over 3 mins of hittin the dummy
The glorious nerf Firestorm decided to do to BM is even turning into memes across FS community: https://imgur.com/a/oBsAb2m
Have a good time my homies and don't drink & drive
Just bumping this for you @Rattoyy since you closed the inital report and maybe missed this new one I opened :)
+1 again Khazark
Thx lad
+1
Very quick update for today. I've been hearing from some people last night that MM got buffed which I ofc cant confirm but for the frist time last night there was a 940 hunt who was beating two 955 bm hunts. This never happened until last night which makes me believe MM did infact get buffed which is just wonderful. Firestorm, pls do the same now with BM, thank you.
++
http://us.forum.firestorm-servers.com/index.php?/topic/35202-hunters-and-firestorm/ NOTE: THIS IS MY UPDATE FOR TODAY IN FORM OF A FORUM POST I WILL COPY PASTE IT HERE: ------------------------------------ Good evening Firestorm forums. I've always been someone who posts here when there is a topic i can relate to and am passionate about. For the last week or two that has been the current situation of beast mastery hunters. I won't go into what was my role and what I've been trying to do in order to help BM get back to where it was, I will just mainly summarize and try to show everyone the big picture of BM hunters but actually hunters in general. THE ONLY THING YOU WILL NEED FROM ME IN THIS POST ARE THESE TWO REPORTS I MADE: https://firestorm-servers.com/en/report/see_report/71883 https://firestorm-servers.com/en/report/see_report/72092 THESE TWO REPORTS EXPLODED WITHIN HOURS WHICH SHOULD BE SOMEWHAT OF AN INDICATION ABOUT HOW IMPACTED PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THIS Now when you have that, let's move on: The goal of this post would idealy be to reach a person from the development team who dealt with inital kill command nerf that sent BM to the bottom part of dps meters. Person who will be reasonable enough to SEE THE BIG PICTURE. I'm sure most of FS community as this point knows about the fact hunters lost about 300-400k dps over night when kill command was nerfed. Granted, it was doing too much damage, but firestorm as it seems didn't have the foresight to realise it's a bad idea to nerf a spell like KC which was complensating for bugged and underperforming spells like dire beast and sneaky snakes. These two I found on my own, there might be more things that are bugged with this spec. As expected when this nerf happened BM hunters were enraged as they should, myself included. It's hard to describe how tilted I am on the people who delivered BM into this state. Good thing is I share this tilt with the rest of BM hunters, especially those who are like me, in most competetive guilds on Firestorm. But hey.... do you know who is not tilted? Firestorm and more importantly hunter QA team. They are chill about this, ofcourse why wouldn't they be since the firestorm QA members don't even play Beast Mastery.... they play Marksmanship. Yeah... those who know them, know that this is true. And when these QA members are confronted and presented with arguments from players who passionately play ONLY Beast Mastery and play it as I said, in the most cutting edge guilds on firestorm.... those players get responses from the QA team like: "Stop complaining about your low dpw" (Yeah... someone who plays in top mythic progression guild is surely just complaning bc he doesnt know how to play... it truly has nothing to do with the bugged spec) "Stop crying" ( >_> ) "Give me more proofs, give me some formulas proving its bugged" (you aint gettin any of them formulas from me... thats your job QA team and you get payed for it) "I don't see anything wrong with this situation" (rly... nothing wrong with nerfing a spec by 300k and not fixing underperforming spells even after being presented with logical proof) "QA is not the balance team" (true... yet qa team is responsible for giving info to devs who then script specs according to that. It just so happened the qa team had an easy time telling devs to nerf BM but is having a very hard time telling devs they should buff underperforming BM spells) "Logs are not an argument" (GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... if logs are not AT LEAST an argument then i'm batman) "Your opinion is just different from firestorms" (if only it was just my opinion.... as it happens... my opinion is shared by hunters all over your server) --------------------- So these are actual responses from QA members over last weeks (i can send scrnshots if needed) . I won't name them. Who is into hunters will know who I'm speaking of. I've even seen memes about them and this situation these days. Btw... i even had msgs from other top hunters saying they themselves tried contacting some QA members and responses they got were something along the lines of "Not my concern" Yeah........ you read that correctly This is why its important to reach devs with this issue hunters are facing. Until now.... I really believed I was reasonable. I actually thought they would make this right but no. I've been getting some responses at start but last days there was nothing and this isn't going anywhere with QA team. QA team just wants a formula from the players. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! We are just players. We can just help QA team the way we alrdy did. With scrnshots, logs, dmg meters and thats it!!! THE REST IS ON YOU! Stop pretending like you had nothing to do with this. You had everything to do with it! We've had enough. I by myself have given enough to prove to anyone who has a shred of brain that BM is underperforming and i pointed out where. When sneaky snakes melee does 300k over 3 minutes of combat... who can say that is working as intended? The hunters of firestorm are furious. Survival wasnt viable even on retail, mm was bugged (btw now they buffed it supposedly... how lovely) , bm was a great spec and was the only one in which hunts felt powerful and useful... now every single hunter spec is officially underperforming. ANYONE WHO WANTS CAN GO AND CHECK MY REPORTS AND HOW MUCH SUPPORT THEY GOT AND HOW PASSIONATE OTHER HUNERS ARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION. PLEASE BY ALL MEANS CHECK THE REPORTS AND SEE HOW MUCH EFFORT WE PUT INTO SHOWING THESE PEOPLE IN A PLAIN LOGICAL WAY WHERE AND HOW THE SPEC IS UNDERPERFORMING. IN THOSE REPORTS EVEN YOU CAN SEE HOW MY LANGUAGE WAS CALM COMPARED TO THIS BC I THOUGHT SOMETHING WILL BE DONE. But no. None of them can convince me they care because if they did they would put the same effort into fixing bm as they did to nerf it They think its blizzlike to fix one spell that destroys a specs overall dps instead of nerfing that spell but also fixing what is bugged in order to preserve total dps and make it reseble retail Its just mesmerising. Thats all. Once again. Just check the reports, especially the current one that isnt closed. Use what firestorm doesnt have currently - logic. Look at the numbers i showed and see how dispicable they look compared to retail blizzard logs........ oh wait.... sorry.... "logs are not an argument" right? Sorry for being this passionate about this topic but its in my nature and i dont accept such injustice being done to all hunters who play here and are simply trying to enjoy the game and feel useful in this very much team game as well. BM atm is not feeling useful while playing in a team. Very sad. As a closing statement... I want to ask everyone who feels impacted by this to be loud. Just be loud and make them see whats going on. Be loud on forums, on bugtracker, on firestorm discord. Help this class and this spec. I am truly afraid hunters wont be taken for raids anymore or will not be given priority spots bc they do poor damage. Raid leaders will rather take some mages or paladins that do 2m dps on most bosses. That is unaccptable! Quite simply, please help. Thanks for reading. -------------------------------
Okay again, I think it would be smart for me to post our position here. 1st of all taking certain short quotes out of contest to make them mean something else isn't exactly productive. We understand your position coming from the lower damage, we are aware the spec is somewhat under performing and are doing our best to find why that is. But we are not going to make up subjective not-blizz-like changes to the game to try and balance it according to anyone's opinion.
In response to the potential bugs, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with DB. I'll be running a few more tests to be completelly confident in that statement, but its almost certainly fine. To only compare final combined DB damage on logs is just wrong, since even stuff like crits can vary greatly among the hunter's, their crit stat and the actual crit rate of the fight. With Snakes we have some unfortunate complications but we are working the best we can to locate the root of the issue. There is also a minor fix with the haste to focus regen yet to be done, which should make the rotations of all 3 specs feel a tiny bit smoother. All that considered, these changes would potentially give only a few percent to BM overall damage, so if there is a larger lack of overall damage, there could possibly be some completelly different bug out there, yet to be found.
To also address the "MM buffs" there were no changes applied at all since the one described in the latest changelog, the one that sparked this whole debate. Terms like "nerfs" or "bugs" aren't even accurate here, since we're trying for bugs of any kind that we find just to get fixed.
So let me get this straight you are 'considering' bugged a crit chance for DB and the damage of snakes which the others proved its fine?
The RNG system for % cant be bugged, sorry to break that dream of yours, I think you already had these discussions multiple times with the hunter QAs, and from what I ve read on your posts overall looks like ill feelings no actual stuff to work it, also looking at some of your statements and the way you take things out of context is pretty irritating. I should remind you there are consequences for spamming the BT and harassing staff. There are classes that are performing lower then hunters, even retail logs puts BM to the bottom side, we wont adjust classes to suit your feelings or 'impressions'
I would kindly advise to stop this nonsense already, the hunter guys were more then patient until this point.
If you think it would be more productive for me to upload the full context, by which I mean the whole convo we had, I will. Just say the word. I have no reason to hold back.
Other than that... it's always nice to hear you're doing your best to fix the BM underperformance, however after such work put into trying to show QA where the problems may be, after so much time spent hitting the dummy, seeing how dire beasts in total over 3mins do 18m with my 30%crit, 30% haste, 92% mastery and 45 000 agility while retail hunters of 940 ilvl were doing at least bare minimum 20m over that timeframe and how my dire snakes melee over 3mins does 500k on average.... after all that, to then be told it's not enough, that its only my opinion, that i need to provide a formula, that logs are not an argument... after all that, it's very hard to believe QA members are GENUINELY DOING THEIR BEST to fix this spec.
I just saw an absolutely wonderful response from yet another hunter who plays on firestorm who feels impacted in his own way by this. In a way that he/she can't do mage tower now. Maybe the person is a casual player and is a bit undergeared and can't complete mage tower with this underperforming spec. KC used to help this player because it made up for poor dire beast and sneaky snakes damage, and possibly other underperforming spells. But right now this is just an unneccecary barrier for this player. All he/she wants is that mount but can't get it bc this spec is so damn poorly performing right now
And what i like most in their reaponse is what i alrdy said... that hunters dont feel valuable in a group environment
For this player it was mage tower, for another it will be mythic plus, for another it will be arena, for another it will be raids....
Don't you get it? You're pushing players and the whole comminity away from this spec and maybe class as a whole. When this becomes known to everyone... some bm hunter may want to join lets say +13 COEN and the leader will say "no.. hunts dont do proper damage, we'll take another class"
All people who invest lot of time into this game and who want to be efficient in their raids or m+ or something else will if the choice is given to them, pick another class instead of hunters.
I'm just getting utter flashbacks of horror from bosses like demonic inquistion mythic or coven of shivara. Hunters stacked together last on dps, with a gap between 2nd lowest dps and them.
People want to see actions at this point. They want to see the degree of action being taken to fix this as the degree of action it was taken to nerf this spec
Alex, first of, there is no harrasment here, if you think there is, you don't know what it is. Next, I didnt have DB crit chance discussions ever until today which was directly discussing it with tenjin over discord. What you call irritating also is plain feedbacm and discussion. Something forums and bugtracker exist for. You also as far as i know dont play hunter class at all but a mage instead so idk how accurate whatever you say is about BM It's lovely how you call this nonsense. Its like you didnt even read the report. If you did, you could see something there is wrong Yes, all i have here is feelings and impressions. Thats all i can have, im not in possesion of formulas or whatever you guys are working with atm. Lastly, both of you have to stop presenting this as something only I feel. Read how much feedback first report got, i could link my convos with other top hunters here and sincr we are I'd say our feelings are pointing at the right direction
like he said BM hunters now are trash none want hunter in his team i was refused in every instance ty fs
Another thing alex which i find interesting is how you said right now that even logs put BM on the bottom yet tenjin today told me you guys dont consider logs an argument when it comes to underperforming specs.
On a more serious note tho, I ask you to read the report. Check out images I linked. Maybe dont concern yourself with DB but i doubt you can say sneaky snakes is working properly
status changed from new report to invalid
status changed from invalid to new report
Let's not be unreasonable Alex. Why is my report invalid? Because I asked you to read it?
We're discussing here. You can see many people upvoted this and even in first report they got very engaged in the discussion
Let's keep it that way. Thank you.
status changed from resolved to in progress
I would kindly ask to stop changing status of this report. It's an ongoing report with loads of feeback if u count first report too so let's give a chance to the hunter playerbase on sylvanas to give their feedback.
Ok, just wanted to add some more infos from my testings.
Spells, up to me, underperforming:
1) Sneaky Snakes (melee): currently doing 4k-8k each while should be doing 10k-28k. mby smth with hunter stats not scaling?
2) Thunderslash (both hati and main pet): its doing a bit less damage than retail, im takin in consideration people with same trinkets, build and stuff.
3) Stomp: ITS NOT CRITTING AT ALL.
So, if u QA guys can please check these 3 would be appreciated.
I can actually confirm this. I didnt play that talent a lot, only on mistress mythic and there it didnt crit when i think of it
I actually heard about this months ago from a hunter who now no longer plays here as I recall
I remember him asking me is stop critting for me which makes me believe that even then it wasn't working as it should
Btw damn im rly thinking now about them sneaky snakes. Thats was good how you managed to find how much each one is doing on FS and how much it should be doing.
Very well done. I was lookin mostly in totals. Just goes to show how good it is to have this open for discussions and reccomendations
That's what we were trying to tell you by saying "logs are a good source to find potential bugs, but they're not the end goal". There are multiple factors affecting the final combined numbers, but the goal is for everything to work correctly, not for the DPS meters to just match the logs using some random modifiers. But I guess what you got from that is "logs are not an argument, we don't care about fixing stuff".
Update, there does seem to be an issue with Dire Beast, it's in the form of the trait https://www.wowhead.com/spell=215779/beast-master not working.
So an update:
- there's a minor focus regen fix yet to be done
- Stomp from Dire beasts isn't critting on live
- the trait Beast master doesn't buff the Dire Beasts
- Dire Frenzy is yet too be fixed
- we're working on snakes, but it might take some time due to the complications
- there are some minor issues reported that are more of comsetic and quality of life variety, and aren't considered priority due to their nature
This ticket should be closed soon since the bugtracker isn't a platform for such discussions. You're welcome to continue this debate on the forums as you've started to do. Bugtracker reports are made to be short and clear, each focused on figuring out the details of any specific issue, you're also encouraged to open more of those if you encounter any new issues. And now for you Khazmark, I don't like what your approach and expectations are turning into, I suggest you start looking up to some other hunters that took a much more rational approach that works well with the processes of our system and has so far actually lead to some constructive conclusions.
Thanks for the info. The thing is I get aggitated at that sentence "logs are not an argument" bc im rly trying to contribute here and help discover problems and I dont have much else than logs.
Regardless, its good to know this issue was found
As for my approach. I don't regret taking it. i dont regret being as loud as I was because there always has to be a person to do that. Firestorm had to see and hear such approach and all other hunters supporting it.
Sometimes pressure is good and by far, I've been given almost nothing but gratitude for my approach by other hunters. I did this for myelf and for them because we all feel connected to this class and spec.
It nothing else, that approach showed how passionate we are about this subject
P.S. I chose the bugtracker for this and not forums because I think most can agree not too many qa members talk there. Here we had some very good discussion, flames and info shared and I'm happy about that. It shows people care and I like to see that.
quick summary:
Dire Beast: Beast Master trait isn't working, so they don't deal 12% more damage.
Stomp: the crit issue is only related to certain open world zones, so it doesnt really matter at this point.
Thunderslash: Hati isnt casting it properly where at certain point if main pet is not attacking, hati's thunderslash is doin' 0 damage.
Sneaky Snakes: seems they are not affected by mastery like dire beasts are or any summoned companion/guardian/pet
So stomp crit only doesn't happen in some open world zones, however happens in raids lets say?
Yeah i checked out, Stomp does crit in raids and instances fine.
Update on Sneaky Snakes: they arent affected by:
1) Mastery
2) Weapons Traits increasing overall damage
3) probably a hotfix applied on retail increasing its damage by 25% (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Cobra_Commander)
Great job. Props to you but also tenjin and alex since you told me you're investigating all this with them.
These things when fixed and combined together will make a difference.
Just very well done. My thanks.
Let me get something straight into your head, the fact you opened this for absolutely no reason when I closed, in itself its punishable, don't know from where u are free edit on BT since you are not QA, or maybe someone didn't remove ya the rank from here. This is not facebook, and what will be solved it will be done internally on proven data, not by discussing it with you.
status changed from in progress to invalid
status changed from invalid to new report
Uuuuu don't get so mad big boi. It's all good
status changed from new report to resolved
